ferodo
How to Stop Brake Fade On Trackdays
How to Stop Brake Fade On Trackdays
How to stop pedal fade and pad fade on trackdays
Brakefade is in essence the brakes ceasing to work. This often happens on track after periods or extended periods of heavy use.
There are two types of brake fade, that are essentially broken down into two specific areas:
Pedal Fade
Pedal fade occurs as a result of the brake fluid boiling in the calipers. The normal resulting symptoms are that on application of the brakes, the brake pedal to feel spongy and pedal travel will increase. This is often called the brake pedal going through the floor. It is a particularly unpleasant experience, as normally when you apply the brakes you are expecting them to pull you up, often when “the pedal goes to the floor” you are hurtling towards something that you would rather not make contact with – IE Someone else, armco or other immovable object that will need more than T-Cut and a polish out…
Braided brake lines will also help resist the spongey pedal feel. Stainless brake line information is following in the coming weeks.
If you experience pedal fade, it almost always will require the brake fluid in the system to be changed, as it will have boiled. Once brake fluid has boiled once, its ability to resit boiling again has been greatly reduced. Brake fluid testing should be regularly done as a matter of course, and on a track car or racecar, it should be replaced regularly, or when tests show it has degraded. (Always use the highest-grade fluid possible). The standard brake fluid now-a-days is dot4.1 however, dot5.1 is now quite common and is suitable for most trackday and race applications.
Pad Fade
Pad fade is the result of friction being lost between pad and disc surface due to the friction material exceeding its maximum operating temperature. The pedal feel remains constant (ie. the pedal remains hard) but regardless of how hard you push the brakes, the vehicle is not slowed down.
If pad fade regularly occurs or if it occurs towards the end of a session or race, an upgrade to a material with a higher operating temperature should be considered. If the highest specification pad material is being used, one should be looking at larger rotors (discs) or a higher quality disc with curved vanes can also aid this cooling process. Alternatively, improving cooling to the brakes through the use of brake ducting or similar.
The most significant area of problems or issues with upgraded brake discs, pads and high performance braking systems is almost always the control of the brake temperatures. The Brake disc and brake pad temperatures can be analysed and with this information, one can measure the temperature range the brakes are operating in. With this information different pad materials can be considered, and cooling systems can be developed and tested to analyse whether any improvement can be made to the operating temperature and reliability of the brakes.
We can offer a number of upgrades to almost any vehicle, but you should expect to pay a minimum of £60 for a sensible Trackday pads such as a Ferodo DS2500 brake pad. (More information is available by clicking the link.)
Mintex offer a number of trackday compounds such as the Mintex M1144. (Again, please follow the link for more information.)
Pagid are also an excellent if not a more expensive solution to a trackday and endurance race pad, however, they are very much worth the money in my opinion.
Always a Hooligan,
/y0z
Ferodo DS2500 Brake Pads
Ferodo DS2500 Brake Pads
Ferodo Racaing DS2500
Ferodo DS2500 brake pads are a popular fast road and mild trackday brakepad used by many hot hatch owners as an upgrade to the standard or OEM brake pads on most sub 1500kg cars.
If you wish to puchase DS2500 pads click here: Ferodo DS2500
Ferodo DS2500 Overview
DS2500 are a great fast road and trackday pad in my opinion, on a car like the RenaultSport Clio 172 Cup or 182 Trophy, they offer a substantial upgrade to the standard Renault OEM pad, but without costing quite as much as the more race orientated Pagid and Performance Friction ’97 pads.
If you fit them with a good quality disc such as the Brembo HC disc or the Brembo MAX disc and braided brake hoses you will inherantly have one of the best value upgrades available for the car. The braided lines will eliminate almost all fade, but the pads will offer you consistent braking performance in most circumstances. Unless you are really pushing on the DS2500 pads are likely to offer you a good value.
I would recommend that you upgrade front and rear pads together in almost all circumstances, especially in a lightweight hot hatch. The main reason for this would be to retain whatever braking balance was there as standard. On a car like the Clio 172 or 182 so little braking is done on the rear that it can help you by using a more agressive pad on the back to eliminate some of the squirm that you will get when pulling up from big stops.
Visual of the pad layers of the DS2500 Brake Pads
The main characteristics of Ferodo DS2500 Pad (according to Ferodo) are:
- The pad was inherantly developed for race use and is therefore designed to withstand the temperatures and abuse that generally come with racing and trackdays
- The pad works better in my opinion on lightweight car – sub 1500 kg, however Ferodo state that it is equally useful for heavier cars.
- Ferodo claim that they achieve 20% less pad wear than competitive products – I would be sceptical about this as something like the pagid blue is a fabulous pad that wears even less than the DS2500.
- Minimal bedding-in. This is very true – you can slap them in a caliper, warm them through and within but a few minutes, they are bedded in and ready for a thrashing.
- Disc friendly – a strange expression – I would have thought that all pads were disc – friendly – If they are talking about wear rates – we have already covered that
- Consistent friction level with variable temperatures and different speeds to give optimal pedal modulation. It is true the pad does feel good at anything apart from the highest of temperatures.
- High friction level at low temperature – the pads work well from cold – basically I haven’t had any worries about using them on the road.
- High friction level at very high temperatures – I am not so sure that I agree with this statement – I find that when they are being hammered on track they can go off, and hence on a circuit I would much prefer to have a performance friction 97 pad under my number 12.
- 35% less compressibility than competitive products (racing pedal feel) – again – how they measure this I do not know – but, I am sure that if they are claiming it – that there must be some foundation to it – how relevant it is to most people I am not sure.
- Less noise for increased driving comfort – Noise levels are generally good – in all of the time that I have been selling DS2500′s I have never had any problems with noisy pads with one exception of a chap who drove around town all day every day… My suggestion to him was to take the car out on a dual carriageway and brake heavily into a roundabout – problem solved.
Championship Winning Ferodo DS2500 Sponsored Peugeot 206
It is simple to identify the DS2500 part numbers in the Ferodo racing pad range of part numbers each pad part number has a suffix that identifies its compound:
H DS2500
C 4003
R DS3000
M DS3000 Plus 03
E DS3000 Endurance
W DS1.11
X DS2.11
Here’s an example using the Renault Clio 172 / 182 DS2500 Pads:
FCP565H = Ferodo DS2500
FCP565C = 4003
FCP565R = DS3000
FCP565E = DS3000 Endurance
If you are looking for Clio 172/182 Brakes we have a guide here: 172 brake advice
Ferodo’s website offersof information on part numbers and pad patterns: Ferodo
If you are struggling to find a pad Ferodo’s Online Resource is quite good: FM Racing
If you would like a price, please don’t hesistate to get in touch – we are very competitive.
Always a Hooligan,
/y0z
RenaultSport Clio 197 and Megane RS Brake Discs, Pads and Callipers
RenaultSport Clio 197 and Megane RS Brake Discs, Pads and Callipers
The RenaultSport Clio 197 and Megane RS brake disc and pad options are few and far between. Both the Clio 197 and the Megane RS (including the Cup, Trophy, F1 R26 and the R26.R) share the same 4 pot Brembo Calliper and disc combinations on the front, so therefore – what will fit on the front of a Megane will also fit the clio.
The brakes are a big improvement over previous generations of RenaultSport Clios (with the exception of the Clio V6), with a much bigger disc and 4 piston (4-pot) caliper rather than a single piston caliper as found on the Clio 172, the 182 and the older generation RenaultSport cars.
The discs are vented312 mm x 28mm on the front and vented 300 mm x 11 mm on the rear for the Megane and on the rear of the clio, the only difference is the 300mm non vented solid discs.
Brake Discs
What Are The Standard Part Numbers (It’s a nightmare) *All Prices are Ex Vat*
Generic – For All Clio’s and Meganes with the Brembo 4 Pot Caliper:
Caliper Service Kit – 7701208118 - £24.36 (You should get two of them if you are changing your pads – as the pins have a tendancy to seize and to bend)
Brake Pads – 7701208218 – £92.50 (I wouldn’t bother with these – uprate them – see below)
Bleed Nipples – 7701209424 – £3.50 (Also well worth keeping in stock if you are out on track a lot)
RenaultSport Meganes
Megane RS R26-R OEM Brake Disc Part Numbers
Front Discs – Single – 7701210178 – £145
Rear Discs – Single – 8200883862 - Not Available From Renault Yet & No Cost
Megane R26 F1 230 OEM Brake Disc Part Numbers
Front Disc - 7701208843 – £110 (Single)+VAT
Rear Disc - 8200650483 – £95 (Single) +VAT (This Part doesn’t actually fit the car in my experience – the bearing is too small for the stub axle)
Megane RS 225 Trophy OEM Brake Disc Part Numbers
Front Discs – Single – 7701208843 – £110
Rear Discs – Single – 8200443579 – £95
Megane RS 225 Cup Drilled OEM Brake Disc Part Numbers
Front Discs – With Sport Pack (Drilled) – 7701208843 - £110
Rear Discs – With Sport Pack (Drilled) – 8200443579 – £95
Megane RS 225 Cup Plain OEM Brake Disc Part Numbers
Front Discs – Without Sport Pack (Plain) – 7701208130 – £65
Rear Discs – Without Sport Pack (Plain) – 8200266043 – £65
Megane RS 225 - OEM Brake Disc Part Numbers
Front Discs – Without Sport Pack (Plain) – 7701208130 – £65
Rear Discs – Without Sport Pack (Plain) – 8200266043 – £65
RenaultSport Clio 197
Clio RS 197 OEM Brake Disc Part Numbers
Front Discs – 7701208130 (Plain) – £65
Rear Discs – 8200736267 (Plain) – £95
Clio RS 197 F1 Team OEM Brake Disc Part Numbers
Front Discs – 7701208130 (Plain) – £65
Rear Discs – 8200736267 (Plain) – £95
Clio 197 Cup OEM Brake Disc Part Numbers
Front Discs – 7701208130 (Plain) – £65
Rear Discs – 8200736267 (Plain) – £95
What Aftermarket Parts are available?
AP Racing / YozzaSport
AP Racing Disc YozzaSport Bell
AP Racing have a two piece disc solution that YozzaSport have worked on. We use their discs, and our own bells, as the price for us to use the AP Racing parts was just prohibitive for the price of the kit. AP recommend that their discs are used with a compound like the DS2500 or one of the Pagid compounds. In my experience the carbon lorraine compounds that are available just eat the discs. I had a very upset Frenchman complain that the discs were too soft a number of months ago… It was more along the lines that he was using a very hard agressive race compound and with no cooling in the standard arches, everything was getting rather hot.
The AP Racing/YozzaSport kit (P/N CP4590-011BNP.CG8) is £649 for the kit & then £344.78 for replacement discs thereafter.
Brembo
Brembo GT Brake Kit for the Clio 197 and Megane RS
Brembo offer a number of components for the two cars.
A Brembo HC brake disc is one of the universal components that they offer – it is simply a replacement disc to the standard Renault OEM disc.
Brembo also offer a GT 4 pot brake kit, which replaces the single piece caliper with a 2 piece caliper, and offers you the choice of either a slotted disc or a drilled disc. In total there are four kits that they offer, prices range from £795 to £1250 depending on whether you go for the one piece discs, or the two piece bells and rotors.
YozzaSport
Obviously as I have mentioned, YozzaSport offer the 2 piece disc kit in conjunction with AP Racing, but we also offer out own Stainless Steel Braided Brake Hoses/Lines.
Stainless Steel Braided brake lines for the clio and megane RS
The Megane and the Clio both suffer with brake fade on track and the braided brake lines that we offer can eliminate this issue. It is obviously important that you also use good quality brake fluid and that you change it regularly.
K-Tec Racing
K-Tec also offer a 2-piece grooved disc I have just noticed.
Brake Pads
The choice of brake pads isn’t particularly wide. I would recommend that if you are planning on changing the pads that you also get these items in stock – as you will probably end up needing one or all of them…
Caliper Service Kit – 7701208118 - £24.36 (You should get two of them if you are changing your pads – as the pins have a tendancy to seize and to bend)
Brake Pads – 7701208218 – £92.50 (I wouldn’t bother with these – uprate them – see below)
Bleed Nipples – 7701209424 – £3.50 (Also well worth keeping in stock if you are out on track a lot)
The Renault original pad is obviously intended for road use. If you are finding that your brakes are starting to judder then it is normally pad material deposited on the disc surface, and the best solution is to go out and thrash the car for 5-10 minutes, using the brakes heavily, and then letting the system cool down whilst you are driving. This should eliminate the vibrations. However, it is also quite common to warp the discs on the 197 / Megane, so be warned – it could be expensive.
My best recommendation for pads is the Ferodo DS2500 – it is almost the same price as the Renault pad, and is much more agressive when being used hard. Price is about £110.
Other alternatives are as follows:
Carbon Lorraine
(Very heavy on discs)
Pagid
RS5
RS15
RS29
Endless
RenaultSport Group N tarmac rally front pads.
So in essence thats it. The complete knowledge about the brakes and everything that is available for the braking systems for the Clio 197 and Megane.
I might well add a few more details to the brake pads sections in the coming days,
Always A Holigan,
/y0z
RenaultSport Clio 172 and 182 Brake Discs, Lines and Pads
RenaultSport Clio 172 and 182 Brakes
This guide is intended to offer you the information that you will require to choose a braking package or disc & pad for your RenaultSport Clio 172 or 182 (it is also very relevant to anyone owning a hothatch or lightweight sports car) from the many different options in a language that everyone should understand without going into too much technical detail.
What is the most important part of going quickly? To be able to stop… every time, at the any point, lap in, lap out. Be this for a corner, a competitor or a catastrophe, you need to be able to rely on your brakes as they will save your life if you look after them.
What Life should I expect from components?
Standard Discs and pads – Between 500 and 30,000 miles dependent on usage & maintenance. On a road car you would expect to achieve 25,000 miles. The 500 miles example would be a car that is used only on the track.
Standard Calipers – Between 10,000 and 50,000 miles dependent on usage & maintenance as well as what pad you are using. On a road car you would expect to achieve 50,000 miles from new before changing the calipers.
Typically on a DS3000 or PF97 race pad you would expect to get one set of pads : three pairs of discs. However you might consider a more expensive pad such as the Pagid RS19-29 or RS4-2 due to its much longer life and over the duration of a trackday or race season you would find that the extra initial cost is multiplied several times over, in savings on replacement discs and pads. This is due to decreased wear as the ceramic compounds are much less abrasive on the disc whilst still offering incredible stopping performance.
A pad like the Ferodo DS2500 would normally last between 15,000 and 20,000 miles on the road – obviously the greater stopping power normally results in more wear. The Pagid compounds are not the exception to the rule, but demonstrate this clearly.
The information that you will wish to know to start with is about your standard OEM (Original Equipment Manufacturer) Components.
OEM Replacement items cost:
Front Discs: 7701207829 – £101.66
Rear Discs: 7701204901 – £189.53
Front Pads: 7701206379 – £45
Rear Pads: 7701207034 – £45
Renault OEM Front Discs 280mm/ OEM Front Pads and Standard Brake Hoses/Stainless Steel Brake Hoses.
What it will cope with: This package as standard is pushed to its limits with fast A&B road driving.
Improvements that can be made: Should you wish to retain the standard discs & pads then the most sensible upgrade that you can make is to change the standard brake hoses to Stainless steel brake lines. The lines offer a firmer pedal feel, and offer a more consistent feel through extended hard use. We would normally suggest that any fluid is replaced with DOT 5.1 fluid at this point.
Std Brake lines Vs Stainless Steel Brake Lines
Stainless Steel brake lines offer a firmer pedal feel, and offer a more consistent pedal feel through extended heavy use. We would normally suggest that any fluid is replaced with DOT 5.1 fluid at this point. They would prevent the pedal from falling – this is when under heavy use the pedal with go to the floor without offering any stopping resistance. Basically the last thing you want is brake fade – going into a corner or ready for a big stop and nothing happening – trust me its not pleasant.
YozzaSport offer both Goodrich brake hoses, and our own hoses made to the same standard. In terms of our advice, there are zinc plated brake lines, and full stainless brakelines. We only sell full stainless brakelines.
I use my car for fast road only
We would recommend that you utilise the following components:
Renault OEM Brake Pads
Renault OEM Front Discs
GreenStuff Brake Pads
Bendix Rear Pads
Brembo HC Front Discs
YozzaSport/Moquip Stainless Steel Braided Brake Lines
Goodrich Braided Brake Lines
Motorquip Dot 5.1 Brake Fluid
Why do we recommend the above products?
The Renault OEM braking package is designed to offer the standard car good stopping ability. It pulls up from 60mph quicker than a Porsche 911 from the equivalent year that it was launched The important failure point of the braking package is the brake lines – once changed, they will offer you effective braking in almost all road circumstances.
The GreenStuff pads offer a slight upgrade to the standard pads, the initial bite is slightly more aggressive, and they will sustain heavy braking in most road circumstances. Once on track or used in exceedingly heavy road applications, the GreenStuff pads are no longer robust enough to cope with the high temperatures associated with this type of braking.
Brembo HC Discs are marketed by Brembo as having a high carbon (hence HC) content over the OEM brake discs that they produce. The HC disc is considerably cheaper than the Renault OEM part and in our experience last just as well if not better, even with use in heavy track applications.
I use my car for fast road and some track use
We would recommend that you utilise the following components:
Renault OEM Front Discs
Ferodo DS2500 Brake Pads
Pagid Blue (RS4-2) Brake Pads
Brembo HC Front Discs
Brembo MAX Front Discs
YozzaSport/Moquip Stainless Steel Braided Brake Lines
Goodrich Braided Brake Lines
Motorquip Dot 5.1 Brake Fluid
Why do we recommend the above products?
Once the Clio 172 /182 is taken on track you start to experience different braking problems, these can be simply; brake fade, massively increased wear, a
nd inconsistent brake performance amongst other braking component failures.
Quite simply we would recommend the Ferodo DS2500 brake package (includes Brembo HC discs, brake lines and Ferodo DS2500 pads) for a road / occasional track package. The Ferodo pad is designed to be a race pad, and we would always remind customers that it is a sold as such – a race pad. If you research on the Internet clubs and forums you will find many people using these as a fast road pad, despite it being designed as a race pad. You use this pad entirely at your own risk on the road.
I use my car mainly for track use
We would recommend that you utilise the following components:
YozzaSport Brake Ducts
Renault OEM Front Discs
Ferodo DS2500 Brake Pads
Ferodo DS3000 Brake Pads (See Reference 2)
Pagid Blue (RS4-2) Brake Pads (See Reference 1)
Pagid Yellow (RS19-29) Brake Pads (See Reference 1)
Performance Friction 97 Brake Pads (See Reference 2)
Brembo HC Front Discs (See Reference 1&2)
Brembo MAX Front Discs (See Reference 1&2)
YozzaSport/Moquip Stainless Steel Braided Brake Lines
Goodrich Braided Brake Lines
Motorquip Dot 5.1 Brake Fluid
(Reference 1) – We would recommend that these pads are used with Brembo Max Discs
(Reference 2) – We would recommend that these pads are only used with Brembo HC discs rather than the Brembo Max discs.
Why do we recommend the above products?
The components that we have recommended above are intended for Track use, and are more suited to race / track use than road use. If you choose to use these pads on the road (In particular the Performance Friction 97 (PF’97) and Ferodo DS3000) you may find that you experience squeaking, dust, and the possibility of the brakes not reaching operating temperatures when using them in heavy traffic or on cold mornings. On our own track/race cars we run either the PF’97 or the RS4-2 with either Plain or grooved Brembo discs. We would also recommend that you use the Ferodo DS2500 or the Pagid Blue pad on the rear to maximise the braking effect that the rear has – without adjustable bias the rear brakes are not used heavily, but this gives you the opportunity to maximise the effect that they do have.
I race my car
YozzaSport Brake Ducts
Renault OEM Front Discs
Ferodo DS2500 Brake Pads
Ferodo DS3000 Brake Pads (See Reference 2)
Pagid Blue (RS4-2) Brake Pads (See Reference 1)
Pagid Yellow (RS19-29) Brake Pads (See Reference 1)
Performance Friction 97 Brake Pads (See Reference 2)
Brembo HC Front Discs (See Reference 1&2)
Brembo MAX Front Discs (See Reference 1&2)
YozzaSport/Moquip Stainless Steel Braided Brake Lines
Goodrich Braided Brake Lines
Motorquip Dot 5.1 Brake Fluid
AP Racing 4-pot package
(Reference 1) – We would recommend that these pads are used with Brembo Max Discs
(Reference 2) – We would recommend that these pads are only used with Brembo HC discs rather than the Brembo Max discs.
For Sprinting/Hill Climb
DS2500
We would also recommend that you use the Ferodo DS2500 or the Pagid Blue pad on the rear to maximise the braking effect that the rear has – without adjustable bias the rear brakes are not used heavily, but this gives you the opportunity to maximise the effect that they do have.
For Circuit Racing
We would also recommend that you use the Ferodo DS2500 or the Pagid Blue pad on the rear to maximise the braking effect that the rear has – without adjustable bias the rear brakes are not used heavily, but this gives you the opportunity to maximise the effect that they do have.
For Endurance Racing
We would also recommend that you use the Ferodo DS2500 or the Pagid Blue pad on the rear to maximise the braking effect that the rear has – without adjustable bias the rear brakes are not used heavily, but this gives you the opportunity to maximise the effect that they do have.
Other Pads and Thoughts.
There are a lot of other pads out there from a variety of different manufacturers – Carbon Lorraine, Mintex, Red Stuff, Yellow Stuff… I have tried most of them and to be honest – the ones I have included in this guide will be either better value, or better performing over the course of a season. I take into account a lot of this without mentioning it and well, I have used, fitted, sold and then advised a lot of people. The feedback that I get is normally that I was right – occasionally I get someone who says that Ferodo DS2500′s squeal… its normally because they were fitted badly or that the person using them hasn’t bedded them in properly.
Always A Hooligan,
/y0z